German Homeschooling Familly Granted Asylum In The United States
January 26, 2010 / 8:26 pm • By Dr. Melissa ClouthierThis German family has been persecuted for a long time:
The long wait is over for a German family that immigrated to Morristown in search of the freedom to homeschool their five children.
A U.S. immigration judge granted political asylum to the family Tuesday afternoon in Memphis.
The decision clears the way for Uwe Romeike, his wife and their five children to stay in Morristown where they have been living since 2008.
German state constitutions require children to attend public or private schools and parents can face prison time or fines if they don’t comply.
Romeike, an evangelical Christian, said he believes the German curriculum is “against Christian values.”
Now, as long as their education stays free here in America.
29 Responses to “German Homeschooling Familly Granted Asylum In The United States”
January 26 2010 / 10:17 pm
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There’s a problem with requiring that children attend school?
I followed the link, failed to see anything that backed up your claim that they were being persecuted.
You have some back up for that, or was it just a guess?
January 27 2010 / 8:21 am
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Fuster, they probably fleed before being prosectued. i was born in Austria and Austria and Germany are not only neighbors but also have similar laws. Not sending the kids to public school can cost you several thousends of Euro fine or years in jail. So my guess is they applied for home schooling and were denied and threatend with imprisonment if they refuse to send their kids to public school, so they fleed before being sent to prison.
January 27 2010 / 12:46 pm
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Glad to know that they are now free to homeschool. If I remember correctly, Tennessee is one of the better states for that.
@fuster: Yes, there is something wrong with the state requiring that parents place their children in institutions whose teachings the parents believe to be antithetical to their religious beliefs.
January 27 2010 / 1:30 pm
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fuster: you won’t find any German sources which paint the picture the way it is: you either put your kid in a state-registered/approved school or your kids get removed (initially for “pychiatric evaluation” to make sure they’re not being damaged by the parents– since they’re being “denied” public schooling). Check out the HSLDA (Homeschoool Legal Defense Assn) story and note the judge’s comments: http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/201001260.asp
January 27 2010 / 6:22 pm
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Tom, thanks for the reply. I tent also to think that the family left rather than agree to send their children to ANY available school.
It seems like a reasonable societal interest to mandate that all children are educated and unless the German law doesn’t allow for children to be instructed by people certified as competent to teach outside of a state-financed setting, it seems to be an impingement on liberty that falls far short of persecution.
Melissa is claiming that they were being persecuted. Where’s the evidence for that?
January 27 2010 / 6:39 pm
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what part of having your kids removed from your custody by State social services because you’re not sending them to publicly certified schools is in the liberty-denied vs. persecution category?
The family witnessed to this in court and presented documentation to the court in Memphis to certify that this happened. The spin-doctoring of “oh, they just didn’t quite agree with the law” is well… great propaganda.
January 27 2010 / 11:51 pm
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GL what part of kids have to be educated is the problem?
does the state have the right to insist that children learn certain things to be literate and arithmetically competent?
what’s the basis for objecting to this?
January 27 2010 / 11:55 pm
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Full legal brief: http://www.hslda.org/hs/international/Germany/RomeikeBrief.pdf
Persecution
8 individual threats over the first three month period when the family refused to put the children in public school
2 incidences of the children being forcibly removed from the home by police during the same period of threat/intimidation
6 or 7 individual fines amounting to around USD $15000 for refusing to comply
After pursuing legal relief from these fines and getting little support from any authorities, the family then fled to the US.
Don’t know what counts in your book and what doesn’t.
January 28 2010 / 12:04 am
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fuster said: does the state have the right to insist that children learn certain things to be literate and arithmetically competent?
GL: what’s the basis of your faith that the state will do a good job of it? I mean… especially of all places in Germany…? There is some historical precedence for this exact kind of behavior by *that* State going a tad haywire.
January 28 2010 / 12:12 am
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thanks for the info.
what counts in my book is whether they have sensible reason for not sending the children to learn or for failing to engage competent and certified private instruction.
if they are seeking to shelter the children from hearing anything other than what they wish the children to hear, that is less reasonable than if they’re protecting the children from a definite harmful thing.
That they defied the law seems clear and that the state has cause to punish them for the defience seems clear.
It’s not persecution unless the law is defective or unless they were prevented from leaving Germany.
Again, can you clearly state what the harm was that the parents envisioned would befall the children.
January 28 2010 / 12:33 am
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No idea what the parents envisioned. you?
I personally don’t agree with the idea that State indoctrination is categorically for the good or even for the better. If it is, why not sterilize everyone and grow kids in petri dishes?
Again, there are some less-than-shining historical parallels in that country around taking(forcing) children out of the home for a dose of good ‘ol State religion.
January 28 2010 / 12:49 am
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I’m no proponent of indoctrinating children, GL, and I like the idea of state indoctrination much less than I like the idea of parental indoctrination.
Neither is good. State indoctrination is evil.
Parental indoctrination harmful.
Parents who refuse to allow their children to hear any voice other than their own worry me unless I understand that they have good and sufficient reason for the action.
Anyway, thanks for the thoughts and the info, GL.
January 28 2010 / 1:01 am
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I guess I overlooked Uwe Romeike’s statement quoted in Melissa’s original post:
Romeike, an evangelical Christian, said he believes the German curriculum is “against Christian values.”
Could it be clearer?
January 28 2010 / 3:52 am
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@ GK I totally agree with you; @ fuster – you contridict yourself here in a certain way, you say you are agains indoctrination of government and Parents; I belive your way of thinking has a flaw side here, it is the responisbility of the parents to pass on family, moral and ethical values to the children, it is the governments job to provide intelectual knowledge based on netureal ways. But when the govenrment starts to pass on Anti-christian values who are in contridiction to the family values than I have the right to take my kids out of school.
And bottom line is that all over Europe, who considers themselve one of the most liberal places, and especially Germany & Austria, who are THE liberal places ethical and moral teachings contridict 100% those of Christians. They are teacing diversity as religion, multi-cultural thinking, homosexuality as normal, underaged drinking, under aged sex (The Austrian secretary of health in 2008 has passed on condoms to 12 year old and explained the proper use as well as how to get free abortion in case the condom does not work) and so on. This is indoctrination to a lifestyle thos parents as christians probably do not want to have for their kids. And neither would I want that for my son. This is one of the reasons I have taken my son out of public school and since the next private christian school in Texas is too far away I teach him from home.
January 28 2010 / 2:22 pm
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Tom, I not sure that you’re correct in thinking that I’m self-contradictory.
I think that it’s the job of parents to protect their children from outside and pernicious indoctrination and it’s also incumbent upon parents to teach their children their own cherished values, however it’s not anything close to proper for parents to insure that children don’t hear thoughts with which the parents don’t agree.
Children are sentient beings and also beings distinct from their parents and as they grow, they have to be able to choose their own path.
At some point, intensive teaching and sheltering from other opinions becomes morally untenable, from whatever source and even when meant as love.
January 28 2010 / 3:08 pm
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Sorry fuster. I was sort of going along with the discussion but now you’re in full contradiction: the parents are objecting to the morality (lack thereof) the children are being exposed to in State-run institutions. What “moral” ground do you stand on to say: a) the State is the right (or even “good”) moral tutor for children and b) at best the State would be morally neutral but, education is not a zero sum morality game. Pure math instruction may be the exception. But science, literature and the arts are rife with morally objectionable premises and content. Yes, I include science – Darwinism is simply a religion in a disguise. It’s ridiculous to call a 150 year old, unprovable, untestable theory anything but religion when “scientists” dogmatically stick with it.
At best, the State is the lowest common denominator of moral instruction. The law of entropy tells us it’s much worse than that– it can only lead to chaos and breakdown (disorder).
You’re also talking about a country where they have 2 state religions: Catholicism and Lutheranism so do not project the intellectual freedoms we have here to that country. That’s the core of the fight: don’t call yourselves “Western”, “liberal” and “democracy” and then deny people the right of self-determination in education.
January 28 2010 / 6:00 pm
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I’m sorry for you, GL. I don’t remember advocating for any particular State-controlled content, but if you object to the teaching of any subject beyond math that is not ordered along religious grounds, I’m sure that there are many wonderful madrassahs that might meet that requirement. Might even get some Saudi Arabian subsidies.
More seriously, you’re not talking about self-determination, you’re talking about parental determination and the way you’re talking you might be advocating parental indoctrination.
What do you fear? Are you so certain that your children will reject what you teach them if they’re taught other things as well that you’re intending to censor everything in their lives?
January 28 2010 / 6:34 pm
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I’m more curious about your faith in the state being the right nanny for your children. What is it based on?
January 28 2010 / 6:48 pm
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I’ve no faith in the state. My faith is in my children and their ability to hear different points of view and use the training and guidance that my wife and I have given them to formulate the principles that will be the basis of their choices for how to live their lives.
January 28 2010 / 7:00 pm
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and why is the state *the* preferred entity to give them a different point of view?
there’s a lot of talk about “thinking out of the box” these days and the need for people who can do that to take future generations to the next level across all facets of productive human activity. Were the movers and shakers of the Renaissance state-schooled? The premise of state education seems rather modern and rather well-boxed.
Allan Bloom did a great job of describing the condition of being so open-minded you become closed. I call it moral analysis paralysis. Others would call it depravity.
January 28 2010 / 7:55 pm
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why do you persist in repeating the question about the state? I’ve answered it and it becomes hard to understand that you’re being serious when you continue with it.
the main point of primary education is reading, writing and arithmetic and interacting with other children.
what’s the objection? I’ve asked that and you’ve not really answered.
January 28 2010 / 8:06 pm
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you’re ignoring my comment that teaching by a State-sponsored school is not morally neutral.
if it were simply about interacting with children, there would be no issue. I go back to my comment about “science” curriculum. It is not value-neutral. Teaching evolution is not value neutral. It’s teaching a state-sponsored religion(one case in point).
January 28 2010 / 8:18 pm
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evolution is not a religion. that’s silly, GL.
if you mean that evolution contradicts your religious ideas, that’s one thing, but that hardly makes evolution an alternate religion.
Again I get no direct answer, merely a vague grumbling that the schools must only teach what you find acceptable.
But speaking of evolution, isn’t that taught to high school students?
Is your plan that high school children must not hear things that you deny?
January 28 2010 / 8:21 pm
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nope. name 1 element of evolution which is provable and verifiable and not faith-based.
evolution is taught constantly from grade zero (watched a TV show about animals for three year olds lately?)
January 29 2010 / 2:58 am
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Fuster, thought GL does a marvelous Job in being patient and trying to explain that to you, you are missing the bottom point here and the topic, fact is: Chilren of course should here all sides and all póssibilities and make up their own mind. right, but also bottom line is that in public schools and especially in Germany/Austria (I know that becasue that is where I was born – I am a naturalizd american citizen) the darwin theory is considered the only thruth and religious part is downsized to a non existing point. Bottom line, GL is right the school is responsible in teaching children intelectual basics and it is up to the parents to teach them morals and values. Modern day school rather teach kids “Public opinion Values” or to use Obama’s words – indoctrinate the youth to liberalism and accaptance of sick and unmoral behavior. Every opostition or any other teaching like conservative points of fews will be washed away by the public school and we, or better I am, afraid that with those pseudo liberal teachings my son loses the line of a moral vlaued living. Lets face it, in early yout years they are formed and who want to rather form the kids? Is it me and to pass on my values or the liberal schools and their non-existing morals. Darwin is a theory but the schools sees it as religion.
Just for example, my sister sent me an email in 2008, the Austrian secretary of Health was personally passing on Condoms in school to children between 8 and 12 and explain the proper use of it and how to get public funded Abortion in case that thing aint working. Now this is not the values I want to teach my kids – God bless I am in Texas,
January 29 2010 / 12:07 pm
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Tom, we’re happy to have you here, I’m sure.
But while I appreciate the patience, I doubt that I’m failing to understand the point that you and GL are making.
I understand it pretty well. I even agree with it to the extent that I thought it my parental duty to have my wife and I assume the bulk of our children’s education in their early years.
But I simply can’t agree with the notion that it’s ethically sound to attempt to keep your children from hearing ideas that differ from those that you hold.
The older the children get, the more unsavory the attempt becomes.
Teaching children that abortion is a necessity is obviously heinous and I harbor doubt that you’re properly conveying what was being taught.
Teaching evolution is not teaching religion, Tom. It is teaching a strongly-evidenced scientific theory that contradicts some simplistic theories of religious literalism.
Contradiction of a tenet of some theory is not positing an entire alternative.
January 29 2010 / 12:19 pm
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Evolution is no more strongly-evidenced than the “simplistic theories” you excoriate. Faith is the core of evolution.
Name the strong evidence.
All of this is a distraction. If you read the brief from the Romeike’s they were persecuted and they fled before their children were removed. If you can read that and still say that the State is the better nanny conversation is pointles..
January 29 2010 / 12:37 pm
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Fuster, I come to the point where I would rather sit in a nice restaurant with the both of you, drink a bottle of Merlot, and discuss this topic to ’till dawn.
You are right, GL is right and I am right and truth of the matter is that the only reason we seem to have a missunderstanding is the fact that we write instead of talk.
As far as the Abortion – you are right and I can not repeat what I said here in public. Unfortunately and to my horror like shock my sister thought that was ok.
As far as the evolution thing goes. I think I have made my self missunderstood.
Scientists and non believers may consider (other than me – for me is the bible the truth and word of god) the Bible a theory as well.
I pride myself to be a thinker and a person that asks questions but that is the difference between me and the European socialist schools. in public schools the bible is nothing but a better bed time story and the evolution theory is the ablsoute truth.
I want my son to be growing up in the word of God, become a good christian man, southern gentlemen and a thinker that finds happiness in sneaking through all my books and learn and ask questions. And at times he will ask about the Darwin theory. I am not oposed to him knowing about but I opose to downsizing the bible as it is done in public scools in germany and austria, in preference to diversity teachings.
Yes you are right sooner or later kids want to know more and you know what I love that my son asks and is willing to learn. I do that too, I am not a blindfolded christian but a man that asks and interprets.
January 29 2010 / 12:45 pm
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Tom, GL, thanks.