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	<title>Comments on: Conservative-Libertarian Treatise</title>
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		<title>By: LEARNED FOREVER</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11997</link>
		<dc:creator>LEARNED FOREVER</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 17:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11997</guid>
		<description>I agree with the Treatise...100%. However. It is Pre-21st Century Thinking. We now live in Post-20th Century Feelings -- the world in which we live. The Treatise is trumped by issues of emotion, self-pity, victimhood. 

I&#039;m beginning to think I may have landed on the wrong planet. The return of the Mother Ship cannot be too...soon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the Treatise&#8230;100%. However. It is Pre-21st Century Thinking. We now live in Post-20th Century Feelings &#8212; the world in which we live. The Treatise is trumped by issues of emotion, self-pity, victimhood. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m beginning to think I may have landed on the wrong planet. The return of the Mother Ship cannot be too&#8230;soon.</p>
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		<title>By: anna</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11810</link>
		<dc:creator>anna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Dec 2008 05:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11810</guid>
		<description>When i was 21 yrs. old, i wrote a socialist manifesto, so entranced with the left, i was. 
i then read the fountainhead, and other works from Ayn Rand, so, i changed my philosophy to objectivism. A bit later, i got turned onto liberatian, and ever since conservative. Swung from one extreme to the other. IT has not changed in years.

Your manifesto..i agree with completely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When i was 21 yrs. old, i wrote a socialist manifesto, so entranced with the left, i was.<br />
i then read the fountainhead, and other works from Ayn Rand, so, i changed my philosophy to objectivism. A bit later, i got turned onto liberatian, and ever since conservative. Swung from one extreme to the other. IT has not changed in years.</p>
<p>Your manifesto..i agree with completely.</p>
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		<title>By: J David</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11614</link>
		<dc:creator>J David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:30:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11614</guid>
		<description>I agree on every point, Cousin, the trouble ultimately still being the implementation of alternatives against hostile local, state, and federal governments, and a monolithic, hostile Fourth Branch in the media. The government controls all of the approved licenses, and the process of licensing, while its misinformation/ enforcement arm in the commie-lib media backs it up. The near-prevalent single parent family structure, or two-income dual-parent structure keep even the most concerned parent much too occupied to offer challenge or competition to the destructive structures now in place. 

The incoming administration is going to be hostile to alternative(and superior)forms of education like we have never seen, and I expect wider revolt against gov&#039;t subsidized propagandizing of children to end in harsher prosecution of parents, and removal of children as &quot;abused&quot;, and a stricter limitation on private and home schooling, as they must to keep and grow their power.

I have one niece, and three cousins who were/are home schooled, and I and three siblings were private-educated in high school, and as a result we are all well educated and well-informed, but there are still concerns that that will passed on to the next generation, and even that took parents willing to pay taxes for public schooling their children were not accessing, while also paying for private schooling. Not very many people will do that, I&#039;m afraid.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree on every point, Cousin, the trouble ultimately still being the implementation of alternatives against hostile local, state, and federal governments, and a monolithic, hostile Fourth Branch in the media. The government controls all of the approved licenses, and the process of licensing, while its misinformation/ enforcement arm in the commie-lib media backs it up. The near-prevalent single parent family structure, or two-income dual-parent structure keep even the most concerned parent much too occupied to offer challenge or competition to the destructive structures now in place. </p>
<p>The incoming administration is going to be hostile to alternative(and superior)forms of education like we have never seen, and I expect wider revolt against gov&#8217;t subsidized propagandizing of children to end in harsher prosecution of parents, and removal of children as &#8220;abused&#8221;, and a stricter limitation on private and home schooling, as they must to keep and grow their power.</p>
<p>I have one niece, and three cousins who were/are home schooled, and I and three siblings were private-educated in high school, and as a result we are all well educated and well-informed, but there are still concerns that that will passed on to the next generation, and even that took parents willing to pay taxes for public schooling their children were not accessing, while also paying for private schooling. Not very many people will do that, I&#8217;m afraid.</p>
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		<title>By: Cousin Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11612</link>
		<dc:creator>Cousin Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:04:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11612</guid>
		<description>So I see J David&#039;s point about, &quot;How do we go about combatting the leftist education establishment?&quot;  And it&#039;s a good question.  In my darker moments, I think that the only way to do it is to create a complete shadow education system, consisting of private schools at every level from preschool to post-graduate.  The trouble is, it&#039;s really hard to compete against the government, and people who fancy themseves to be arms of the government tend not to like it.  That doesn&#039;t mean that we should not continue to pursue private education, but in the short term, it isn&#039;t going to replace the public system.

So, as far as reforming the public system, there are two things that have to be attacked: the monopoly that school districts and individual school administrators think they have over the student body, and the monopoly that teacher unions think they have over content and access to the classroom.  Vouchers are one way of attacking the former; they tend to get bad press, but when you actually explain the concept to people, nearly everyone of every social class gets it and is in favor of it.  Another way is to campaign for open school districts: why not let every family choose where in the district it wants its children to go to?  Why should children be trapped in a non-performing school just because of what neighborhood they live in?  When you explain stuff like this to people, and point out to them the bad effects that a neighborhood being stuck with a non-performing school has (not only on their child&#039;s education but also on property values), most people tend to agree with it.  

A good way of attacking the union monopolies is to press for alternate certification of teachers.  Allow people with degrees in the subjects being taught to teach.  This breaks up the Marxist ed-schools&#039; monopoly over the supply of teachers.  Instructors with alternate certification are often retirees from industry, and they bring a far more realistic and practical sensibility to the classroom.  And right now, alternate certification is flying under the MSM&#039;s radar.  Strike while the opportunity is there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So I see J David&#8217;s point about, &#8220;How do we go about combatting the leftist education establishment?&#8221;  And it&#8217;s a good question.  In my darker moments, I think that the only way to do it is to create a complete shadow education system, consisting of private schools at every level from preschool to post-graduate.  The trouble is, it&#8217;s really hard to compete against the government, and people who fancy themseves to be arms of the government tend not to like it.  That doesn&#8217;t mean that we should not continue to pursue private education, but in the short term, it isn&#8217;t going to replace the public system.</p>
<p>So, as far as reforming the public system, there are two things that have to be attacked: the monopoly that school districts and individual school administrators think they have over the student body, and the monopoly that teacher unions think they have over content and access to the classroom.  Vouchers are one way of attacking the former; they tend to get bad press, but when you actually explain the concept to people, nearly everyone of every social class gets it and is in favor of it.  Another way is to campaign for open school districts: why not let every family choose where in the district it wants its children to go to?  Why should children be trapped in a non-performing school just because of what neighborhood they live in?  When you explain stuff like this to people, and point out to them the bad effects that a neighborhood being stuck with a non-performing school has (not only on their child&#8217;s education but also on property values), most people tend to agree with it.  </p>
<p>A good way of attacking the union monopolies is to press for alternate certification of teachers.  Allow people with degrees in the subjects being taught to teach.  This breaks up the Marxist ed-schools&#8217; monopoly over the supply of teachers.  Instructors with alternate certification are often retirees from industry, and they bring a far more realistic and practical sensibility to the classroom.  And right now, alternate certification is flying under the MSM&#8217;s radar.  Strike while the opportunity is there.</p>
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		<title>By: J David</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11611</link>
		<dc:creator>J David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:57:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11611</guid>
		<description>I expect the collapse of the GOP in its present incarnation, or just as likely, a morphing of a branch of it back into a version of Republicanism as practiced by Ronaldus Magnus. Without a repentance of its straying from first principles(upholding the Constitution as written, and protection FROM big gov&#039;t)and a return to all points of conservatism, which I always argue includes both social and fiscal, and strong defense, it cannot compete with the bribes socialists can offer. Conservatism can only survive if it represents principles that are larger and more universal than mere selfish individual will, which protected freedom of ALL individuals from gov&#039;t encroachment actually is, along with consistently upheld and enforced justice to those individuals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I expect the collapse of the GOP in its present incarnation, or just as likely, a morphing of a branch of it back into a version of Republicanism as practiced by Ronaldus Magnus. Without a repentance of its straying from first principles(upholding the Constitution as written, and protection FROM big gov&#8217;t)and a return to all points of conservatism, which I always argue includes both social and fiscal, and strong defense, it cannot compete with the bribes socialists can offer. Conservatism can only survive if it represents principles that are larger and more universal than mere selfish individual will, which protected freedom of ALL individuals from gov&#8217;t encroachment actually is, along with consistently upheld and enforced justice to those individuals.</p>
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		<title>By: M Farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11609</link>
		<dc:creator>M Farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:47:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11609</guid>
		<description>I never advocated the Libertarian Party, and I&#039;m not a member of the Libertarian Party. I was responding to what I thought were misguided statements concerning &quot;libertarians&quot;.

You are right that the Libertarian Party has little chance of victory in any major election. The persuasion of libertarian principles is the influence it has on both parties. If Republicans take the view, in earnest, that libertarian values are antithetical to the party, then I predict attrition of Republican power and the eventual collapse of the party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never advocated the Libertarian Party, and I&#8217;m not a member of the Libertarian Party. I was responding to what I thought were misguided statements concerning &#8220;libertarians&#8221;.</p>
<p>You are right that the Libertarian Party has little chance of victory in any major election. The persuasion of libertarian principles is the influence it has on both parties. If Republicans take the view, in earnest, that libertarian values are antithetical to the party, then I predict attrition of Republican power and the eventual collapse of the party.</p>
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		<title>By: J David</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11607</link>
		<dc:creator>J David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 19:31:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11607</guid>
		<description>All the ideals, fine and agreeable though they may be in theory, are ABSOLUTELY USELESS if they cannot be put into practice.

This country is not trending toward freedom, and the necessary policies to expand freedom are being destroyed, not built.

Nobody is, as far as the results of the last election show, being &quot;persuaded&quot; toward Libertarianism. Its support shrank.

Libertarians are against &quot;law as a teacher&quot; concept, and are then, in effect, against the concept of being led. It is an every-man-for- himself, vaguely anarchist(and certainly attractive to those types)form of NON-gov&#039;t government, trusting a non-existent innate brotherhood and goodness of mankind.

One of Rush&#039;s &quot;35 Undeniable Truths of Life&quot; is that &quot;this a world governed by the aggressive use of force&quot;. The anarchy of Libertarianism cannot, upon its philosophy and recent demonstrations of its results in Trutherism and anti-war protest, muster sufficient military force (without a gov&#039;t enforced draft, which we will soon see from Hussein)to protect citizens. People instinctively recognize isolationism in the present world is impractical and dangerous.

I am not being purposely combative to Libertarian-in-a-vacuum ideals. I am saying that the practical realities that cannot be &quot;visualized&quot; away by any intentions are that I, and most other social conservatives are going to be completely repulsed by the present riff-raff that surrounds and supports the Libertarian Party. It won&#039;t matter if I read every brilliant piece of academic philosophical thought ever written on Libertarian ideals, they are still only that.

You will NOT get but a very small, Vox Day-type pointy-head few to read reams of philosophy and then vote on it, and explain that reams of philosophy to others, and get them to vote on it. You WILL get the skimmers who will exploit the points of libertarian thought that are immediately useful to their own anti-social ends mucking-up the water and repelling any significant following of solid, producing citizenry.

The common definition of insanity these days is doing the same thing over-and-over endlessly expecting a different result each time that never happens. THAT is the Libertarian Party. That does not represent &quot;protection&quot; in any form, to the masses of sheeple who, as human nature dictates, want to be protected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All the ideals, fine and agreeable though they may be in theory, are ABSOLUTELY USELESS if they cannot be put into practice.</p>
<p>This country is not trending toward freedom, and the necessary policies to expand freedom are being destroyed, not built.</p>
<p>Nobody is, as far as the results of the last election show, being &#8220;persuaded&#8221; toward Libertarianism. Its support shrank.</p>
<p>Libertarians are against &#8220;law as a teacher&#8221; concept, and are then, in effect, against the concept of being led. It is an every-man-for- himself, vaguely anarchist(and certainly attractive to those types)form of NON-gov&#8217;t government, trusting a non-existent innate brotherhood and goodness of mankind.</p>
<p>One of Rush&#8217;s &#8220;35 Undeniable Truths of Life&#8221; is that &#8220;this a world governed by the aggressive use of force&#8221;. The anarchy of Libertarianism cannot, upon its philosophy and recent demonstrations of its results in Trutherism and anti-war protest, muster sufficient military force (without a gov&#8217;t enforced draft, which we will soon see from Hussein)to protect citizens. People instinctively recognize isolationism in the present world is impractical and dangerous.</p>
<p>I am not being purposely combative to Libertarian-in-a-vacuum ideals. I am saying that the practical realities that cannot be &#8220;visualized&#8221; away by any intentions are that I, and most other social conservatives are going to be completely repulsed by the present riff-raff that surrounds and supports the Libertarian Party. It won&#8217;t matter if I read every brilliant piece of academic philosophical thought ever written on Libertarian ideals, they are still only that.</p>
<p>You will NOT get but a very small, Vox Day-type pointy-head few to read reams of philosophy and then vote on it, and explain that reams of philosophy to others, and get them to vote on it. You WILL get the skimmers who will exploit the points of libertarian thought that are immediately useful to their own anti-social ends mucking-up the water and repelling any significant following of solid, producing citizenry.</p>
<p>The common definition of insanity these days is doing the same thing over-and-over endlessly expecting a different result each time that never happens. THAT is the Libertarian Party. That does not represent &#8220;protection&#8221; in any form, to the masses of sheeple who, as human nature dictates, want to be protected.</p>
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		<title>By: M Farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11604</link>
		<dc:creator>M Farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 18:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11604</guid>
		<description>&quot;So where will this education begin? How will it then be dispersed to the masses who must spend their vote giving the concepts(which they ultimately must understand before they believe in and vote for it) actual power politically?&quot;

Hopefully, the same way as in the libertarian beginning of the country, through persuasion.

 &quot;There is not going to be a spontaneous combustion of energy for an arcane ideology that is ideologically apolitical…The things Libertarianism stands for are what kills it before it can be born.&quot;

Like what?

&quot;It is individualistic to a degree humans have never been, enmass, individualistic.&quot;

If you mean it&#039;s against collectivism, then, yes -- if you mean libertarians are for the protection of individual rights, then, yes. Guilty.

&quot;It is against the wielding of power, or even obtaining it to begin with, apparently.&quot;

No, it&#039;s not against power, per se. Most libertarians are for a limited government with limited power, as opposed to a big government with great power of coercion that violates individual rights.


&quot;People follow power, and power begets further power.&quot;

I can also say, people follow freedom and freedom begets further freedom. Libertarians are surely against more government power, that&#039;s true.


&quot;There is no apparatus for the ideas of Libertarianism to spread itself beyond the spider-webbed, dusty halls of academic institutions, or the long-haired, dope-smoking Truthers and racists that scoop out the parts of Libertarianism that serve themselves and throw the general good of society into the trash.&quot;

Hmmm, I don&#039;t know how to answer this. I can see this is leading nowhere fast. One method of spreading libertarian principles is through the spider web of the internet. Reducing libertarians to the whackiest radicals is as wrong as reducing conservatives to religious fanatics, racists and Timothy McVeighs. I will end here because it&#039;s taking an ugly turn. Read Machan, Boaz, Naverson, Paine, Nozick and others if you&#039;re interested. If not, then so be it -- it&#039;s a free country, almost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;So where will this education begin? How will it then be dispersed to the masses who must spend their vote giving the concepts(which they ultimately must understand before they believe in and vote for it) actual power politically?&#8221;</p>
<p>Hopefully, the same way as in the libertarian beginning of the country, through persuasion.</p>
<p> &#8220;There is not going to be a spontaneous combustion of energy for an arcane ideology that is ideologically apolitical…The things Libertarianism stands for are what kills it before it can be born.&#8221;</p>
<p>Like what?</p>
<p>&#8220;It is individualistic to a degree humans have never been, enmass, individualistic.&#8221;</p>
<p>If you mean it&#8217;s against collectivism, then, yes &#8212; if you mean libertarians are for the protection of individual rights, then, yes. Guilty.</p>
<p>&#8220;It is against the wielding of power, or even obtaining it to begin with, apparently.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, it&#8217;s not against power, per se. Most libertarians are for a limited government with limited power, as opposed to a big government with great power of coercion that violates individual rights.</p>
<p>&#8220;People follow power, and power begets further power.&#8221;</p>
<p>I can also say, people follow freedom and freedom begets further freedom. Libertarians are surely against more government power, that&#8217;s true.</p>
<p>&#8220;There is no apparatus for the ideas of Libertarianism to spread itself beyond the spider-webbed, dusty halls of academic institutions, or the long-haired, dope-smoking Truthers and racists that scoop out the parts of Libertarianism that serve themselves and throw the general good of society into the trash.&#8221;</p>
<p>Hmmm, I don&#8217;t know how to answer this. I can see this is leading nowhere fast. One method of spreading libertarian principles is through the spider web of the internet. Reducing libertarians to the whackiest radicals is as wrong as reducing conservatives to religious fanatics, racists and Timothy McVeighs. I will end here because it&#8217;s taking an ugly turn. Read Machan, Boaz, Naverson, Paine, Nozick and others if you&#8217;re interested. If not, then so be it &#8212; it&#8217;s a free country, almost.</p>
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		<title>By: J David</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11597</link>
		<dc:creator>J David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 17:43:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11597</guid>
		<description>So where will this education begin? How will it then be dispersed to the masses who must spend their vote giving the concepts(which they ultimately must understand before they believe in and vote for it) actual power politically? There is not going to be a spontaneous combustion of energy for an arcane ideology that is ideologically apolitical...The things Libertarianism stands for are what kills it before it can be born. It is individualistic to a degree humans have never been, enmass, individualistic. It is against the wielding of power, or even obtaining it to begin with, apparently. People follow power, and power begets further power. There is no apparatus for the ideas of Libertarianism to spread itself beyond the spider-webbed, dusty halls of academic institutions, or the long-haired, dope-smoking Truthers and racists that scoop out the parts of Libertarianism that serve themselves and throw the general good of society into the trash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So where will this education begin? How will it then be dispersed to the masses who must spend their vote giving the concepts(which they ultimately must understand before they believe in and vote for it) actual power politically? There is not going to be a spontaneous combustion of energy for an arcane ideology that is ideologically apolitical&#8230;The things Libertarianism stands for are what kills it before it can be born. It is individualistic to a degree humans have never been, enmass, individualistic. It is against the wielding of power, or even obtaining it to begin with, apparently. People follow power, and power begets further power. There is no apparatus for the ideas of Libertarianism to spread itself beyond the spider-webbed, dusty halls of academic institutions, or the long-haired, dope-smoking Truthers and racists that scoop out the parts of Libertarianism that serve themselves and throw the general good of society into the trash.</p>
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		<title>By: M Farmer</title>
		<link>http://www.melissaclouthier.com/2008/12/02/conservative-libertarian-treatise/comment-page-1/#comment-11595</link>
		<dc:creator>M Farmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 17:24:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.melissaclouthier.com/?p=11727#comment-11595</guid>
		<description>My comments weren&#039;t directed at sheeples or winning elections, they were directed at understanding libertarianism -- Before people begin dismissing libertarianism, they should at least understand what it is. Whether people will bother or not was not my point.

All political thought is more complex than the simplified version presented during presidential elections, and libertarianisn can be simplified to an understandable message -- but first you have to understand it, before you can effectively simplify it, or correctly simplify it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comments weren&#8217;t directed at sheeples or winning elections, they were directed at understanding libertarianism &#8212; Before people begin dismissing libertarianism, they should at least understand what it is. Whether people will bother or not was not my point.</p>
<p>All political thought is more complex than the simplified version presented during presidential elections, and libertarianisn can be simplified to an understandable message &#8212; but first you have to understand it, before you can effectively simplify it, or correctly simplify it.</p>
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